Judi Holler - Improv Your Way Out of Fear
Introduction:
Welcome to Beyond Speaking with Brian Lord, a podcast featuring deeper conversations with the world's top speakers.
Brian Lord:
I'm Brian Lord. Your host of the Beyond Speaking Podcast, and today, our guest is Judi Holler. Judi is a professionally trained improviser and alumni of Second City's Conservatory in Chicago. She uses her training every single day to embrace fear, manage self-doubt and get more comfortable being uncomfortable, which if there was ever a time for doing that, it is now. And so Judi, thank you so much for coming on and being a guest here on the Beyond Speaking Podcast.
Judi Holler:
Well, thank you for having me, and what a great way to open because everybody loves the word pivot. And I don't know if you're listening right now. And when I said that word to you, you just got like the tingling, goosebumps all over your body because you hate that word as much as I do. And I love that you went there because let's be honest, what are we really doing? We're improvising and you've been improvising your entire life and you'll continue to improvise your entire life. And so I think this pandemic and this disruption has really woken us up to the reality that we are never really in control of other people, places, and or things, but what the improv mindset helps us do is realize that we can always control how we show up. So I'm glad we started there because the lifestyle and the mindset of an improviser is, is a game-changer.
Brian Lord:
Speaking of that mindset, when was the first time you realized, like, once a pandemic hit that this mindset would help you out?
Judi Holler:
Mm, immediately. Because I knew I had a choice to make, you know, there's this great story I have and I think we have to start with the story. It's a newer story. One I haven't really publicly shared a ton, but I think it'll help, uh, people get some perspective on not only the improv mindset, but why it's such a beautiful step into possibility and how it can illuminate so much in your life, uh, from just, um, a perspective twist. So my best friend, Jodi, uh, lost her oldest daughter. Okay. So if you have kids, you can't even imagine a loss like that. And so Olivia would have been 11 years old this year. Um, and when Jody was moving through that loss, uh, there was a day that she was on the floor of her closet. Okay. Having a hard time moving through the day, as you can imagine, and her incredible husband, Adam walks into the closet and he picks her up off the floor, and he said something to her that forever changed how they looked at disruption and hard times and hard things, and most specifically the loss of Olivia, he looked at her and he said, Hey, Jodi, we got a to make here. And this was probably two months after they'd lost their daughter. He goes, "We could either, number one, be the people and the parents who lost Olivia or we can choose to become and be Olivia's parents." And I loved that shift because when you think about anything happening in your life, whether it's a diagnosis, a failed relationship, a lost relationship, a lost job, a global pandemic, you have a choice to make. You can either let this pandemic happen to you or you can choose to happen to it. And this is the lifestyle and the mindset of an improviser. We use the two words "yes, and" to do that. So when you-know-what went down, we said, "Yes, this is happening. Yes. My entire business just hit a brick wall, and what are we going to do with that? And how can I add something new and how can I keep moving forward?" And really that's what it's all about. So this notion this mindset, without even Jodi realizing she was doing it, they had a choice to make in that loss. You can take the worst thing that's ever going to happen to you, which is losing a child. I mean, you can't even fathom it. And she has turned that into, I mean, look, I'm talking about Olivia right now. If you heard goosebumps, when I told you that story, that's Olivia, right? And that story lives on, she lives on Jodi lives on, she has two more kids and she's one of the most positive, optimistic people you could be around. So having said all of that, I realized I needed to improvise pretty quick. I put my training to work by whiteboarding and getting the team together and putting so many and scenarios in front of our team and in front of myself and just started making decisions. But here's the thing to close the story. You know, your positivity when, when tough stuff is happening, does not discount that there's pain in the world. Right. And your optimism does, does not deny that people are suffering. But what it does is it keeps you moving forward. And this is just really the idea behind the improv mindset specifically, "yes, and". We use those two words to move. God, to move. And especially when things are hard, that's one of the most important things you can do feel it, but don't be it.
Brian Lord:
So can you back up just a little bit, from an improv standpoint, where does "yes, and" come from?
Judi Holler:
Mm, so it is really the root, the core, um, of all improv theater. It's kind of one of the first things you learn when you start improv. Like you're in Improv Level A and one of the first things you do to figure out how to move forward on stage is you use "yes, and" to do that. So I could give you a really easy example, Brian if you would like to do a little quick improv exercise with me, you ready
Brian Lord:
For the shot? What'd you do it? I will do it. Yes.
Judi Holler:
Yes. And cool. Okay. So he's right. See, he's already improvising. Okay. So I'll give you a scenario here. So for example, say we get a suggestion of, we are going to plan, uh, the, uh, the holiday party, a big gigantic holiday party. There is no budget, meaning we can do whatever we want to do. And there is no COVID, there are no restrictions. There are no masks. We are living in a, a world that is free. Okay. And we're going to plan this party and I'm going to throw out an idea for this party, Brian. Okay. And you are going to respond with "Yes, and" add something onto the party. And then I will say "yes, and, yes, and..." We'll just... So this is how we use the idea because we don't have a script, everybody listening, Brian and I- We've got no script. I have not told him what to do. Um, but all we know is we're going to plan a party and we're going to use "yes, and" to see what happens. So, Brian, I'll start us off with the first sentence and get the party started. Brian. I am so excited about our annual holiday party. You know what we're going to do. We're going to take everybody to the Cayman Islands and we're renting out a private beach.
Brian Lord:
Yes, and how we can get there is via a glass submarine where everybody can check out all the stingrays and sharks and everything on the way there.
Judi Holler:
Yes, and we'll hire Beyonce to come in and do a private concert for everybody in that submarine.
Brian Lord:
Yes, and we can, um, also get, "Oh, who would be the best person that could do a duet with Beyonce? I am going to say, Paul McCartney will be there doing a duet with Beyonce.
Judi Holler:
Yes, and then we will hologram in all of the Beatles and even Jay-Z. So it's kind of like a hybrid Beatles, Beyonce, Jay-Z moment.
Brian Lord:
Yes, and we're going to get some of the infinity stones from the MCU and then teleport in people from various movies that have been so popular over the last few years.
Judi Holler:
Yes, and then at the end of the day, we'll give everybody monogrammed robes and allow them to pick out any spa service they want. And, see you get the point. You're right. So we'd yes, and, yes, and, yes, and" into an adventure. And so it's all about like, talk to me, Brian, had you ever done that before? Number one, I have a feeling you might have played that game before. You did really well.
Brian Lord:
Thank you. Once. Years ago, I took a free improv class.
Judi Holler:
Boom. And look at that payin' off.
Brian Lord:
It always pays dividends.
Judi Holler:
It always does. It's such a confidence builder, you guys. Yes, and what it allow us to do those two words is just to keep the scene moving forward. So that is a tactical example of how we use those two words to get sort of started in the improv theater because you'll show up and you won't really know you'll be nervous. And you're like, do I have to be funny? And it's already going to make fun of me and Oh my God, what if I mess up? And what if I embarrass myself and ding, ding, ding, does that sound kind of familiar in life? Right? Like there are so many times we don't do anything or we don't make a move or we don't speak up or we don't ask for the promotion or the money or the raise or whatever, because we're afraid. Right. And so these two words keep us moving and it sort of gives us a script without a script.
Judi Holler:
Right? So every day you wake up probably with some goals and some plans and stuff you want to get done, but really we are not in control of what could happen. But these two words can sort of bring us back to our center when we feel lost. "Yes" acknowledges that there is something in front of us, like "yes" means, okay, Brian, you just gave me something. Yes. I see you. I hear you. I am in this moment with you and what you have to say matters. "And" here's how I can heighten and explore and bring some possibility to where we're going and keep things moving. And, and I don't know if teams do this enough. I think we want to be innovative and we want to win, but we're not afraid to start small. I mean, we're too afraid rather to start small, you get what I'm saying? We're too afraid to start small. And we're, we're so afraid of looking stupid and we're so terrified of mistakes. And I think that's what we should really fear, uh, the comfort zone and not failing because failure is the best data stream on the planet and "yes, and" just makes it fun.
Brian Lord:
One thing I really find fascinating about you and what you do is that, uh, you know, unlike Beyonce for mentioned Beyonce, you were not born this way. You had, um, you the very first time you went up to try out, I think you, it wasn't, "Yes, and," it was "no." Can you tell us about that?
Judi Holler:
Oh, you've done your homework!` Yes. That is such a good story. This is one of my favorite stories to tell in my Everyday Improvisor keynote. Um, so I signed up for... Okay. I signed up for the basic classes at Second City in Chicago that anybody can go take. I was working in sales and marketing by day. Um, I had moved to Chicago by, by way of a big promotion. I opened hotels. I worked in hospitality, tourism, sales, booked city-wides, uh, for hotel companies and got a big promotion. So moved up to Chicago and always knew that if I got there, I'd want to do Second City. I'd want to try it. I thought it'd make me a better performer, a better orator, a better- a storyteller, whatever. Plus I was single, and I was in Chicago. Let's go meet some people, right? So I signed up for the basic class, the class, anybody can go take, I pay the fee full fee, the nonrefundable fee, by the way, for the entire semester, I leave my apartment in Lincoln Park. I walk all the way to the training facility in old town. I walk into that building up the stairs, down the hallway, proudly stand in front of this classroom door and I never went in and I remember lying, literally lying. When people asked me if I was lost and be like, "Oh, ma'am can we help you?" Or, you know, you're in the wrong place. I'm sure it looks like a crazy person. I was like, Oh no, my bad, you know, wrong day, wrong hallway. I lied. I don't know what I said. I lied Brian. I ran out of there so fast. My big fear at that time is that I was too old. I was 30 years old when I took my first ever improv, 30, 30 years old. Where are my 30-year-olds at? Little whippersnappers. You are just getting started. Right. So I was 30 and I thought I was too old. I thought it was too late. I thought I had missed my chance. I didn't believe I was funny enough, worthy enough, smart enough. Right. And so I quit and wouldn't it be great if we could stop, you know, quitting on ourselves if we could stop missing these opportunities. And most importantly, if we could stop allowing fear to make our decisions. So it, it took me two years to go back almost 32 years old. I resigned up for those improv classes, paid the fee, the non-refundable fee again, walked back. Uh, this time I walked into that building up the stairs, down the hallway, stood in front of that classroom door, and opened it. And what I didn't realize at the time is that I was quite literally opening the door to the rest of my life. Uh, I went on to study at Second City for five and a half years. Auditioned for the Conservatory, got in, stayed in, quit my job, wrote a book, here we are today. I've got a big old neon sign behind me that says "Yes, And". I help people use the Improv Mindset every day and all that's cool and all that's great. And I'm so proud of it, but that is not even the best part of the story. So when I'm on stage and I'm giving my talk, I put up this slide and it's got my first ever improv ensemble. And I ask everybody before I show the picture, I'm like, you guys remember what my big fear was? And they're like, yeah, you were too old. Or you were 30 and all this stuff. And I'm like, yeah, but check this out. And then I click the slide and up goes my first improv ensemble. And one of the first persons you see your first people, you see, I circle her, her name is Shelly. She was a 57-year-old University of Chicago professor taking improv to better connect with her students. And then in the back to my left, I circled Frank, who was a 55-year-old sales guy taking you prob to like stay relevant. And here I was for two years waiting, you know? And so that brave moment. Yeah. Like I think of that story all the time. Had I not done that? Yo, I wouldn't be here with you. I wouldn't have the book. I wouldn't be doing anything that I'm doing personally and or professionally. And think of all the people who would still be living inside the comfort zone that wouldn't have had access to some of these ideas because of the way I, you know, sort of DJ them out. So you got to open the door, you got to go scared and you have to be willing to get uncomfortable and you have to keep getting up. You know, even if you didn't do it the first time, we have to be brave enough to keep swinging. So I love that, you know, that story, it's one of my favorites.
Brian Lord:
So what happened in that two years, that changed where you could finally go through that door?
Judi Holler:
Such a good question. Um, I okay. A few things. Um, number one, I had a great circle around me and this is why, you know, we talk so much in our community now about vibing and thriving, right? Yours, your net worth. However you define success. It's going to look different for everybody, but your net worth is really, really, truly tied to your, your yourself sense of self-worth. Right? And so I spent those couple of years with, uh, going inside and really doing some deep work on myself. And I had some great people around me, really encouraging people around me. That's number one. So people pushing me and, and, and pushing me in the right ways. And number two, uh, I was listening to and reading a lot of Brene Brown for a while, who I always make the joke, like Brene Brown's my kind of like my Beyonce, uh, certainly between like 31 and 35, you know, it was just really getting consumed in her work. And so many thought leaders, um, that really showed me a different way, you know? And so it was through books and early days of podcasts and just really taking on a lot of virtual mentors. Um, specifically people like Brene Brown doing work, uh, Seth Goden, um, Michael Hyatt, my goodness. Um, so many incredible people that have just helped me get out of my head and into action. Um, and co you know, shameless plug for the industry that is meetings and events. I will never forget seeing, seeing Simon Sinek speak on stage. And I watched him deliver his Start With Why talk back when he was new, new, new, and this was kind of aligning with what was going on with me in the improv theater. And I watched him speak, I think it was MPIs WEC. And like, I mean, he was new Start With Why was like, just out. And this is another story I love to tell. Uh, but he, um, he lost his place on stage. I write about this in my book. He lost his place. He was speaking. I mean, this is 5,000 people, Orlando massive convention center. I mean, everybody, the room standing room only, I mean, he was the guy, right? Viral, TedTalk, bestselling book, all this good stuff. Um, and so he's on stage killing it. All of a sudden he stops talking and it gets quiet and he goes over to the lectern and he sort of shuffles some papers around and takes a drink of water, like wipes, his brow, mind you he's on these freaking jumbotrons. Okay. So he's larger than life in this huge, huge convention center ballroom. He, he walks to the middle of the stage and he sort of looks up at all of us. And he says, "Ladies and gentlemen, I am so sorry, but I've, I've just lost, lost my place. I've, I've never done that before. I'm a little bit nervous. I've gotten off track and I've totally lost my place." And so in that moment, you hear everybody, all 5,000 of us sort of take this collective in-breath for this keynote speaker. We are watching who by the way is doing what all of us fear more than death itself, which is public speaking. And the man who's just blanked out on stage in front of all of us. Like, what was he going to do? And we're like hanging on by a thread. And then in the same breath, he says this, he says, however, it is in this moment right here right now that I have never been more sure or reminded that I am alive. He does right now, my hands are shaking. My heart is racing. My blood is pumping, but ladies and gentlemen, I am very much alive. One by one. I have goosebumps even to this day, 10 years later, you're telling the story, we all stand up mid keynote, standing ovation for this man who is just been brave enough to be vulnerable and say, "Oh my God, I've lost my place and I'm terrified, but, dammit I'm alive!" And isn't that a great thing. So he gets back on track, delivers an incredible keynote that gets them another standing ovation. And I remember that being a defining moment for me, you know, how, how can I not do this when he can do that? And I write in my book that there's research and I'm gonna probably flub it up because I don't have it memorized, but it's by Harvard, Harvard Business where like neuroscience shows us that when we watch someone do something scary and prevail, it rubs off on us in really good ways. And Simon... Him believing in himself, him not running off stage him owning that moment forever transformed my life. And I can't be alone in that. Right. And so I, gosh, it might've been four or five months after that keynote by Simon that I, I did it. And I walked back into that classroom. And so, you know, between my friends and the self-work and the Brene Brown and the Simon Sinek, I got myself back. And I think it was a combination of, of a little bit of all of that. But, but boy, that's a story I love to tell and it, it really transformed my life.
Brian Lord:
So after that, so after walking through that door the second time or walking through the door the first time on your second try, um, do you have any of those defining moments like Simon had that, like you say that this is yours and people have brought that up to you before.
Judi Holler:
Wait, let me make sure I understand the question...
Brian Lord:
Like a defining moment for you in your post, uh, post walking through your second city door. Like some big-time where you overcame fear.
Judi Holler:
Yeah. Oh my gosh. A hundred percent. I think every time I put a new talk on stage, certainly the very first talk you ever deliver. I mean, you have to be brave enough to get it wrong so that you can figure out how to get it right. And, you know, I, um, I had some, I don't know if you know who Vanessa van Edwards is, um, wrote a book called Captivate, great gal working on her second book. And she was looking for people to case study in her book. And she's like, "Hey, I'm doing this course, and we're studying-" You know, she loves to study people. She has people's school. And so she loves to study people and she asked me, um, cause I'm one of her keynote speaker friends for some of my tape, but she didn't just want, she wanted a tape of me on stage a tape that I loved a new talk, but then she wanted an old, like my very first keynote, like the very first time, which I of course have. Um, and I never thought I would ever share with anyone. And I'm like, I'm about to share something with you that is so horribly embarrassing, but it's also one of the most proud moments of my career because it's me doing it, it's me trying it. And I, I remember what I was wearing. I remember I had these chains on and I was wearing a lav mic and the audio was so bad because it was "ching, ching, ching." And I paced the stage like a lion and I talked way too fast and I tripped over a cord. And, you know, I wasn't aware of how the room was set up. So I was on this huge riser in a room set for like 50. And it just, the things you learn. But I, that for me, I will never forget that moment because it was the first time I remember saying, if there's a difference, let me, let me back up. So you can get a clean cut on this. But it was the first time I remember saying, "I am a keynote speaker." Not, "I think I could be." Even though I wasn't getting it right. And even though I wasn't the greatest yet, nor will I ever be at nor do I want to be, we're always learning. It was the first time I was like, "I am and I can, and I'm worthy of it." And so I put myself out there and I think anytime I look at tape or go back and see the evolution of, of myself as a person, myself, as a performer and myself as a storyteller, I'm always proud of the bad moments. I'm always proud of the first talks. I'm always proud of the things that didn't go, right. Because it's how I know how to prepare for things to go right. And that's the gift of an improviser. We're okay. Going off script, but boy, we respect our audiences. So when we want to be prepared and we want to show up and be the best version of ourselves, but we're also cool and loose and flexible. Right. Um, so yeah, I think Brian, to answer your question, I mean, it's, it's a land, the plane, it's for sure. Those early talks and being brave enough to do it. Cause I wouldn't be sitting here talking to someone like you right now had I not done that.
Brian Lord:
One of the things I think is always part of the journey, cause I know you're an improviser, but I also feel like, I mean, you're obviously a teacher, a part of that journey is becoming a teacher. Do you remember the first person you taught improv to?
Judi Holler:
Oh my gosh. Yes, Lauren. So we would probably be my very first improvisor that I pulled on stage with me because there was a lot of imposter syndrome at the time. For me, when I was thinking about infusing live improv into my keynotes, there was a lot of "Who am I to do this"? You know, "Oh my God, this is not mine." And, "Who do I think I am? And my goodness, I'm not, you know, some main stage, Second City, Saturday Night Live guy. And then what do I know?" Right. And God, the limiting beliefs. And the way we talk to ourselves is, is so sad sometimes. And, and that, there's a lot of that in my work because we really have to, before we can handle fear, we have to think about who we are as a human being and sort of how we mentally move through anything in life. And so my work kind of blends, you know, the holistic human being that you are, but also like, you know, that future version of yourself, that's kind of always on the other side of fear, but yeah, I remember bringing my first improviser up, uh, Lauren and, oh my God, I was so scared. Um, and she crushed it, but then the improvisor after you, this is what you're going to love. He had, um, English was a second language. So, um, I wasn't prepared for that. I had not had that happen to me before. And so Lauren came up, played my first game with me. It was awesome. The audience was hooting and hollering and it went great. So my confidence was a little bit boosted. I was like, it worked. And then I do another game. And my second game is always kind of my like favorite game because it's a little harder, which means it's more uncomfortable, which means people laugh way harder because it's super scary. Right? And so we ease them in and it was a game called the ABC game. And you have to go in Chronicle logical order of the alphabet and with someone who doesn't know the English language very well, it makes that game very, very complicated. Uh, so instead of doing what I would have done now had that happened, I panicked and I didn't know what to do. And I got totally thrown and the game was awkward and you could feel people feeling awkward for me. I mean, this was probably 10 years ago now. And, um, we, we sort of got through it and then I stopped the game and it was awkward and people didn't know what to do. And you know, what I would have done now would say, would say, would have tried to get them to understand. And I would say, you know what, great job round of applause for George, George have a seat. You almost bring someone else. Cause I really want you guys let's play it again because I really want you guys to understand how this feels. And I would've said, you know, and I would have probably taught a lesson about communication. How often does this happen when we can't communicate with someone else or we don't understand, or there is a barrier there and I would have rolled it into some sort of swaggy lesson because I trust myself and I know what I'm doing. And I would have found a way to make him look amazing while still honoring the audience. But I got so scared cause I was too worried about myself and how I was going to look. And so the grace of time and the grace of confidence has really made me understand that my only job when I have the gift of a stage is to take really good care of that audience to make my meeting planner look amazing, of course, to take really good care of that audience. I mean, that's job. Number one, like I want people high fiving her and being like "Where'd you find this girl?" Um, to take really good care of the audience. And then anytime I put a performer on stage with me to make them look incredible. And when you do that, you remove you from the scenario. You know, you can't lose because you love yourself enough to know that you've got an algorithm that works. Take care of your client, take care of that audience and take care of those improvisers. And the rest is history. So yeah. Great question. I haven't thought about that in a long time, Brian. You bring, you bring in the zingers.
Brian Lord:
Hey, we're trying, we're trying. So, so one last one here. Um, and to put you on the spot, uh, so fear is one of the things so many people are trying to overcome now, what is one big fear that you still feel like you need to get over and how are you going to overcome it?
Judi Holler:
Oh, my gosh. Well, I think it is one, as an entrepreneur, I deal with every single day and I am so hyper aware of it. Uh, but it is most certainly. And this is probably, you know, someone once said, I can't remember who it was, but someone once said, "If you want to know the people you read, look up to follow, listen to hire whatever. Um, if you want to know what, they're, what keeps them up at night, read their work." Read the work because I write about what I need and what I'm struggling with. And that's how I know a thing or two about it. Cause I'm trying to solve the problem for myself. So it is always imposter syndrome. It is always this feeling of like, "Oh my God, everybody's going to find out. I have no idea what I'm doing. I have no idea what I'm doing." Yet at the same time, I think that's what makes it work is that I am brave enough to admit that I am not afraid to look silly. I am not afraid to get it wrong and I am not afraid to learn. I am nobody's guru. I am a forever student. So I walk, um, I walked through imposter syndrome on the regular and I'm always working hard to check myself on that. And so my plan to handle it is to do what I just did with you right here to be, um, awake to it, to, to be aware of it. But to remember that I don't need to beat it. And here's a hack if you too are also struggling with imposter syndrome. And by the way, just the definition of imposter syndrome is, um, feelings of inadequacy, despite evidence of success. So you could have a million Grammys and you still feel like, Oh my God, which is a real thing for somewhat J-Lo- I mean it's J-Lo feels like a constant imposter, Maya Angelou. I mean, you read some of the legends. I mean, this is, this is something that high performers struggle with. You know, you're crushing it, but you still feel it. So a way I- A mental health hack I've been using to get around it because this is going to be my way out of it. I know it is that when it arrives, instead of being like, "Oh no, you again, imposter syndrome." I now go, "A-ha, I've arrived." Because I believe that when imposter syndrome or comparison or jealousy shows up in your life, any of that stuff, which is all fear is a really good indicator that you want more and you're ready for more in your life and you believe you're, you're worthy of it. And it feels scary. That's why the imposter syndrome bubbles up to stop us. Here's got one job to stop you. So knowing that means you got to move. So instead of saying, Oh no imposter syndrome again, I want you to start saying, "A-ha, I've arrived again. I'm ready. What does this mean? How can I lean into it? What can I study? What can I borrow and make my own, you know, what is it in this person or this experience that triggering me and how can I use that to amplify the quality of my life and my work in my business." So small Jedi mind tricks paired with just an awareness, but imposter syndrome is the real deal for me.
Beyond Speaking is hosted by Brian Lord and produced by Eric Woodie
